Friday, 27th July, 1860.

The Native Secretary observed that as there were several chiefs present who, having but recently arrived, had not yet addressed the Conference, he would not detain them with a speech, but invited them to come forward and express their opinions.

Matene Te Whiwhi, (Ngatitoa.) of Otaki, then rose and said: I will speak upon the treaty of Waitangi. I approve of it. My reason for doing so is because of the evil customs of the Maories which still prevail. The Ngapuhi sought out a plan for themselves, and they found it in connection with the Europeans. Hongi thought he had found in them a means of carrying out his designs. He went to England, and on his return began to put forth his strength. The Ngatiwhatua were attacked and conquered; then the Ngatimaru; then the Uringahu; then the Ngatiawa, at Tauranga; then the Ngatiwhakaue, at Mokoia; the battle at Matakitaki was fought and won; we were then his victims at Pukewhakamaru. These things were done under the evil Maori system. Afterwards came the Ministers; the Ngapuhi remained firm to the European. Thence came European customs, and the Ministers also. The pakeha stands in the relation of an elder brother to us in all things; all proceed from the same source. Therefore, I say the Treaty of Waitangi is a good thing, I have nothing to say against it. Where there has been misunderstanding, fault has been found with it, but there is no serious complaint. This is all, Mr. McLean, that I have to say on that subject.

I will now speak about this matter between Wiremu Kingi and the Governor at page 39 Taranaki, respecting which we have found fault with the Governor. This is my view. Murder was committed; Rawiri was the victim. There were both murders and Maori feuds there (at Taranaki). Waitere also was murdered there; and again there were Maori feuds. The Governor thought, which of the Native tribes will step in to put an end to the strife, or which of the Native Chiefs will interpose for this purpose? The Governor then thought again, presently this matter of Te Teira's will be like those two previous affairs. Then he decided on the course to be adopted, and sent soldiers to Waitara. Why did not Wiremu Kingi then look, and seeing the soldiers, cease his obstinacy? He persisted and became more determined in his opposition, and the result is, the fighting now going on. Wherefore, I say there is no fault chargeable on the Governor. Enough on that subject. It is said that Matene (himself) devised the Maori King scheme; and it has gone through this Island that Matene was the originator of the Maori King. When I and my companion arrived at Whanganui we saw the Bishop and Governor Grey, and the letter was shown to them both. The Bishop said, I shall have a word to say to you (on the subject) to-morrow (Sunday). The Bishop then said, It is right that we Ministers should make known to you the word of God; and that you, the Chiefs, should carry (the proposition, of) love and union to all the tribes. The next morning was the Sabbath, and the Bishop's word was this, that the Maories should be strong to make firm the bonds of love amongst the Native tribes. We then proceeded on our journey, and reached Rotorua; my word there was that the Native tribes should be joined together and become one people. On my return to Otaki, a meeting was called by Te Heuheu, at Taupo. (The Taiporohenui meeting will not be spoken of by me now.) On our arrival at Taupo the Waikato (Chiefs) stood up and spoke. They were unanimously in favour of holding the land and they condemned us, the tribes who alienated our lands. I felt hurt at this. I then said. Waikato! who was it that gave away the land? Whanganui! who was it that gave away the land? Then I said. Waikato, it was you who gave away the land. This is how you gave away the land: without having possessed any right over certain territories in former times, you pick a quarrel with the tribes to whom they belong, fight with them, and then make peace. You see, here is Maungatautari there is Kawhia, and there is Taranaki. This caused me to provide page 40 for my own safety. As soon as I saw the Europeans, I at once gave them a portion of my land, and I allied myself with the, pakehas that I might be safe. Do you hearken, this is the way in which the land may be retained. The Queen below (as the foundation), upon or above her, Potatau, above him, Te Heuheu; Turoa above, Tukihamene above, Taraia and Tupaea, and all the Chiefs of this Island above; so only can our Island be kept. But if this tribe goes back and follows its own course, and another tribe takes its own separate course, then our Island will not remain in our possession. After me Te Heuheu Iwikau got up and said, There are only two things, God, and the Queen. He then took up his Mere, Paikaure. and repeated his song, "When the earth is shaken, when the earth is shaken, where shall the people go. O Ruai-moko, hold it, clutch it, hold it fast, fast." This was intended to confirm what he had said before. that there were two things for him. God and the Queen only.

Parakaia Te Pouepa, (Ngatiraukawa,) Otaki: It will not be right to carry back my word without speaking it. Now, perhaps, for the first time, shall I fully enter into the arrangements of the English Government; and now, perhaps, for the first time, will what I have to say be heard. As I have now come to this Conference, I will speak about the troubles at our place. A certain individual possesses land, a number of persons flock round to hold back the land. The owner wishes to sell it to the Government; a number of persons take up the question, and urge on land selling, saying, Be strong, be strong and sell your land. It is, wrong that a number should interfere and try to hold back the land owned by one person; it, is also wrong that a number should try to force the desire of the individual owner. It is here that the fault is seen on our side. The fault on the side of the Government is, that they will not listen to our word respecting holding land. Many are the letters written by us, and they are not answered. Mr. Mc Lean alone answers. The payment is not given to the owner of the land. What Mr. McLean said to Nepia is right, Nepia, don't you say that it was you only who held the land; it was you aud it was I. That was enough, the land holding was then broken up. It remained only to acquiesce in the desire of those who were anxious to sell. Now they begin to turn their thoughts to the works of the Queen. My people, the Ngatiraukawa, collected money for building page 41 bridges, for building Churches, and other undertakings, to be carried out under the Queen's authority. The sum of £58 6d. was raised, and I was appointed by my people as treasurer, to take charge of that money and to send it to the great Bank at Port Nicholson. Afterwards, in the year 1860 the Otaki rents received by Nepia were given to me by him on the 27th March, to lay before the people. I did not agree that the people should spend this money. I therefore put the Otaki rents, amounting to 35l., to the 58l., which made 93l. I did not allow the affair of Te Rangitake to interfere with my undertaking. I kept on with my work for the Government. Dr. Featherston contributed 58l., which has not been seen; we have only his word. I, Parakaia, am now applying for that money to be given to us by the Governor. Let 93l. be given, that it may be added to the money I have collected to pay for bridges and roads. It will not do to begin the work with so little to pay the work-men. I am the person appointed by the people as president of the Committee, and to receive the contributions.

Kawana Paipai, (Ngapoutama,) Whanganui:—Mr. McLean, I do not approve of your suggestion that those Chiefs who nave spoken already should not speak now. I was invited here that I might speak, and therefore I shall speak. In my opinion the law of God has united the two races. The law of God has redeemed the world of sin. (He then chaated a waiata.)

Honatana, (Ngapuhi,) Bay of Islands:—Listen! Chiefs of this Runanga. This is a union of ourselves with the Pakehas. I belong to Ngapuhi. My people were the first to receive the pakeha. Ngapuhi first set you the example of Christianity. I consented to the first Governor, and it was I who permitted him to come here.

Mr. McLean, this is my word to you (Pakehas). You have already witnessed my adoption of the laws of England. I have again erected the colour flagstaff) at Maiki (Kororareka). The Queen's Sovereignty has been acknowledged by my act; by this I know that the Queen is now my head; I and my boundaries (land) will constitute the body. Let all men of understanding follow my example. Let it be with the laws as with Christianity. People of different places are associated together and constitute a church; in like manner let the opinions of all the people be united (on the subject of the laws) Now I say let us fully enquire page 42 into the meaning of Queen Victoria's sceptre. If we of New Zealand do not understand that sceptre we shall be like unto gold eaten up of rust. I have nothing more to say.

Tamati Wiremu Aramoho, (Wanganui.) Whanganui:—In former times I had no pakehas and I lived in poverty. When I became possessed of the pakeha then I saw riches. The very year after I had received fire-arms and powder, (Archdeacon) H. Williams arrived. For one whole day we assembled to confer with him, and then I accepted Christianity. After this Mr. Wakefield came to purchase land. He offered scissors; and soap as payment, and I received them. After (Archdeacon) Williams's visit I sent a man to search for a missionary for me; and Mr. Mason came. Then I saw the light of 'day. The scissors and the soap (as payment for our land) were then rejected. I spoke thus to Mr. Wakefield, "Return." After this came Mr. (Commissioner) Spain, and Mr. (Sub-Protector) Clarke. They came to investigate the land question. I said to them also. "Return." Mr. Symonds (?) came and I said to him "Return and take your money with you." He then went away. You, Mr. Mc Lean, are the person, who settled that land. It has been surrendered to you. That was my final cession and you have the land for ever.

Afterwards I enquired after the nature of Christianity. We sent a man into the presence of the Queen; she said to him that the two races should be united and made equal. I adopted that proposal, and I have adopted, the Governor's also. I will now seek some word from you and the Governor. Do not trample on my words, lest it be said that this is a fault of the Governor's. Let the boundary lines of my place be made clear; in order that I may let my lands and obtain silver. I am settled amongst the pakehas. The land to which I refer is at Rangitikei.

Paora Tuhaere, (Ngatiwhatua,) Orakei:—I am not going to dwell much on my-having brought the Europeans here. In my opinion, it depends upon the quality of the soil, and the advantages of the place; where these are superior the Europeans will come. It is because the Paheka expended money and bought land in some particular locality that he Settled there. Let not any one say it was by his invitation.

I am the man who found fault with the Treaty of Waitangi. I formed my own judgment upon it and seeing it to be wrong I condemned it. I find fault with it because the Ngapuhi foolishly signed their names to it without due consideration I judge thus page 43 from (their subsequent conduct with reference to) the flagstaff at Maiki. When that flagstaff was set up, it was said to be a flag denoting that their land would be taken away. Heke then thought over it, and the flagstaff was cut down by him. This was where the Ngapuhi showed their folly; the blood of the white man stained the black hands, and the blood of the dark skin stained the white hands. It was that flag which caused this. They did not send for all the Chiefs of this Island to come to enter into that Treaty of Waitangi; blankets were brought by Mr. Williams. Those I call the bait and the hook was within; the fish did not know there was a hook within; he took the bait and was caught. Mr. Williams's bait was a blanket; the hook was the Queen's Sovereignty. When he came to a Chief he presented his hook and forthwith drew out a subject for the Queen. Thus he did all the way to Port Nicholson. Afterwards the people at Port Nicholson were stained with blood. Waikato also accepted that Treaty. Afterwards they strike out in another direction and a King is set up. Some have become evil, others have set up a King. It is for this reason that I find fault with the Treaty of Waitangi.

Ihakara, (Ngapoutama,) Whanganui:—Chiefs of the Conference. This is a meeting to unite the thoughts of the people. This is my word. I approve of the Governor's proposal to have a Conference (of Chiefs) in order that good may result to both Pakeha and Maori. God sent the Pakeha to this country and light has sprung up in all places.

I have a word to say about Rangitikei. My grievance is not of to-day. You know all about it (Mr. McLean). I urge upon you to settle it.

Mete Kingi, (Ngapoutama,) Whanganui:—Chiefs of the Conference, let me express my thoughts to you. Let this meeting be joined to the Treaty of Waitangi. Let us urge upon the Governor not to withhold this institution from us. I have a word also to say about the (mixed) jury of twelve. Give me this also to settle my difficulties. "Payment to whom payment is due; custom to whom custom is due."

Maihi, (Ngatihoko,) Tauranga;—I will acknowledge my error, and I will confess my sin to you Mr. McLean. My evil is the dispute about Ohuki. The Ohuki affair as respects further sacrifice of human life is settled, though as respects the land it has not yet bean settled. When Mr. Turton page 44 came to us I was saved, but now there are two Lords, the Queen and a king. One of these Lords has become jealous about his servant being taken by the other, and if he is taken by the one then the other will be angry. Hence I can see that there is death in this the Maori King project.

Hemi Parai, (Ngatiawa,) Wellington:—As to that which is called the Treaty of Waitangi, I have heard nothing about it. The only thing I have heard of is the law of God. As to these laws which have been spoken about. they have been out of sight with the Europeans. I did not hear of them. It is true I received one blanket. I did not understand what was meant by it: it was given to me without any explanation by Mr. Williams and Reihana. These laws are of to-day When Governor Grey camp to Port Nicholson. then first were the laws understood. Governor Grey laid out roads, established schools, and built hospitals. It was he also who appointed the Chiefs as Assessors to assist the European Magistrates. Among us Porutu and Te Puni were appointed; Manihera was another. This it was which brought me: into close connection with the Europeans, and here I take my stand under the protection of the Pakeha.

Ihakara, (Ngatiraukawa,) Manawatu:—If this were a day for making objections I would object to some of the Rules contained in this book (Dr. Martin's Rules) viz., to the rule relating to the penalty in cases of adultery, which is tak en by the Queen and the Runanga. I disapprove of this, but let this rest for the present. I shall now return the books which you have given to me and my friends, that you may write in them with your own hand. [Laid three copies on the table.]

Te Hapuku, (Ngatikahungunu,) Ahuriri:—I have nothing to say. I am ignorant and what I shall say will be foolish. It is quite correct, Ngapuhi, the Europeans were yours, and the wrong was yours. You went and fetched guns to destroy men; and when they turned round upon you, you drew up your knees (the posture of a corpse). So also your Ministers; you brought them, and you yourselves condemned them. You gave away the land; it was quite gone, and the Europeans thought the Queen's mana was established over it; their flag was set up at Maiki; you yourselves jumped up and cut it down. Kawiti called out, Cut the hands and cut the feet also; then they attacked Kororareka, and Kawiti's children fell. The origin of the strife which you and Heke waged with page 45 the Europeans was of your own seeking. What has been said is all very Well. but it is one heart in which both the good and the evil lie. But Waka has said, it is to Here-taunga that we may look for evil to arise. It is well: they are children, they are ignorant and do not understand, if they do evil there it is well (or no wonder), but the Pakeha is not the cause of the strife there, he has had nothing to do With it. But the Work I have decided upon in my own mind is to hand over the land. I parted with my land to the Europeans and alienated it for ever. I did not give it and then immediately turn round again; for I received the money into my hand. The land went to the Europeans for we all belong to the Government. Now however, they go over to the Native King. I am alone: I, the single individual here speaking. All the men have gone over to the Maori King. These are the evils the Maories have committed against the Europeans. The Europeans have done no evil. Here we see it. Let our relations go on with their Maori King; do not interfere with them. It is known that the object of this Maori King is to kill the Europeans and to take the land for himself. Leave them to Work out the thing which their hearts have devised. You see, that side is with the Maori King, but this side is with us who are here assembled in this Conference; we are on the Queen's side. I and the Government men will do our work. Leave Waikato to do his hundred works. Is it not Waikato by whom every sort of work is done. If only a position like to that of a Governor were claimed for their King, there being one Queen, it would be well; and let Taiaroa also be made King for the other Island, for he has a separate Island. The Europeans have many Islands, and many Kings; but all derive their authority from the Queen alone. Leave the Europeans to carry out their work. When their Queen dies, another Queen will be set up by them, for they understand their work. See also, that battle-field will be said to be Potatau's, (his fame belongs to himself personally and not in his character as King). Presently Waikato will set up another person as King; now this is where the mischief will arise for this Island. For my part I say, let me have two canoes this side, and the side of the Maori King. You all have embarked in my canoe, Takitimu (referring to the Ngapuhi's canoe). Do not be angry with this work of setting up a Maori King. Do not fall foul of it rashly; let them quietly work on their page 46 side with their Maori King, Governors, and Magistrates; let us also quietly work on our side. That field (of battle) was Waikato's; they did not leave it to Te Rangitake and the Governor to carry on their own work and to settle it between themselves. They have chosen to interfere; let them do so. Leave the Governor to do as he may think proper in his work. If Te Rangtake think it well to give up the disputed land to his friend, well, it may be regarded as payment for the murders by the Taranaki and the Ngatiruanui. This is all I have to say about that matter.

I will now turn to what you said yesterday, respecting the law which you explained to us, about the (mixed) juries; that you should take part, and that I, the Maori, I should take part (in carrying out) the law for murder. If one of your people, the pakeha, wantonly murders one of my people, the Maori, let the payment (the murderer) be given into my hand, that my heart may be at rest, having had satisfaction for my relation; and I will afterwards deliver him up to be put to death in your way. If one of your people, the Europeans, die by my hand, the Maori, I will hasten to give up my relation to you; that the word may be fulfilled which says that the Europeans and the Maories are one people. If you withhold yours (the murderer) that will be wrong. For instance, a man of this place was killed; his name was Hemi. Here one of my people, a Maori, was killed; yours, the European, was tried, and he was allowed to live, and to eat bread in a house, and he still continues to live. There was one of my people at Hawke's Bay, Mohi by name, killed. When yours (the murderer) was sought for he was saved, and allowed to live and eat bread in the house. Now, listen to this: if you, the European, should kill a man after this (any where) in this Island, letters will be written. And when a second has been killed by you, the Europeans, the whole Island will take it up, every tribe in it. Enough; here we shall get into troub'e, all the Island will rise, mischief will follow, and all because you withhold your criminal. This is to advise you, that you may know what are the thoughts of the Maori. For the Maori has unhesitatingly given up his relative to you. Look at Maketu; he was not withheld; although a son, he was given up to you. Maroro also, you executed him; that however was good; it was his own evil to the Europeans, and he was the payment for his own crime. Again at page 47 Whanganui Europeans were killed, and the Maories were immediatelyseized and delivered up; they were not withheld. Add to these Kuika (daughter of Rauparaha) who was killed by the European. Wakefield tried to take Te Rauparaha also at Wairau. Te Rauparaha, however, took Wakefield, but evil did not grow of this which was the result of his own foolish proceeding. Mr. McLean, this is where we are wrong. I point it out to you that you may understand. It is for you to look at this wing (of an army) lying here, and that wing standing there. Let the discussion of these matters proceed quickly, that it may be finished to-day. This is the reason of my sadness; my elder brother lies here sick. We wish to return, lest he should die here, and it should be said that you poisoned us, for we did not come here as men in sound health, When we came here, we were to be carried off to England (alluding to Maori reports). It will be well if after our return we all die together of this same disease, so that our deaths be not charged upon you Europeans.

Mawae, (Wanganui,) Whanganui:—Mr. McLean, I did not see all the Governors. In the time of Governor Grey we did not hear of a Conference; now that we have assembled here we see that there is a Governor. When Hapurona was wounded, the Pakehas and the Maories quarreled. I proposed at the time that (instead of fighting) that should be considered payment for Mr. Wakefield's pipes (barter for land). 1 did not take part (in the war). It was after this that five native lads murdered a family of pakehas (the Gilfillan family). They were given up as payment and hung. I continue to place my reliance in the pakeha. lf I quarrel with the pakehas I will settle my own quarrels, inasmuch as the pakehas are my own, and the Governor, too, is mine. [Here the Speaker chanted a song.]

Now let me say to you, let the next meeting be at Whanganui—let the next Conference be at Whanganui. Should you hold it here next time I shall not attend. Will Whanganui and Taupo be able to attend if you convene it here?

Tamihana te Rauparaha, (Ngatitoa,) Otaki:—It has been said that those who have spoken should sit quietly and let those speak who have not yet spoken. It is because I have still a desire to speak that I rise now. I say the Treaty of Waitangi was good. Some approve of that Treaty; others object to it. In my opinion there is nothing wrong in it. That Treaty is right; it is clear. Those Natives who do not understand it, are confused page 48 about it, and that is why they object to it. Paora has said that it is not clear, that the blankets were the bait and the Maories the fish. The Europeans saw with regret the many evils which existed among the Maories at that time, and that was the reason why Governor Hobson made things smooth, so that they should sign their names as soon as possible. I say, therefore, that that Treaty is clear. That Treaty is like a new road which has just been opened, and which has not been carefully measured off, the brushwood having only just been cut away; and though strife between the Maories and Europeans has been frequent, still the kindly provisions of that Treaty have not been erased. So also in the first purchases, the land was not paid for in money, but with blankets, with scissors, with jewsharps, and other goods of inferior value. It was a road of which that was but the beginning. Afterwards the Queen agreed to purchase the land of the Maories. Then first did the Maori see the yellow gold to his hand. Now the purchase of land is clear, as it is paid for in gold. The buying of land with blankets is like the Treaty of Waitangi. This second Treaty, the Kohimarama Treaty, is like the buying of the land with gold. As the rule of paying for land with money is now fixed, so in like manner the provisions of this Treaty are now clear, like the road which has been properly made. In my opinion this is going on towards maturity. The foot has attained one step; when the second is reached then it will be quite clear. I think we had better cease to speak about the disputes of those days gone by, as both the Europeans and the Natives know how wrong those proceedings were. Let us begin afresh now and have new thoughts from this time; let our aim be to hold fast the protection of the Queen, and let us strive to follow the customs of the European. With respect to cases of murder, let them be dealt with according to the law of England; if a European should kill a Maori, let the case be dealt with by that law. Whether European or Maori let the offender be dealt with by the same law. If a Maori should be killed by a man when drunk, let the case be tried, and if it be seen to be wrong (that the slayer should be put to death,) enough, let him go; whether European or Maori let the rule be the same; or, if he be a deranged person, let the same law be observed. For instance, there was a woman at Nelson killed by her husband, who was deranged; we, the people of the Ngatitoa page 49 and the Ngatiawa, wished that the husband should be put to death. The Governor wrote up to us. that this would not be right, the man being insane. That was sufficient, and we adopted the Governor's view as the right one.

There is another thing: it would be well to define the boundaries of our lands, that each family may have its own portion marked off; these should also be surveyed, the Governor appointing surveyors for the purpose, that we may have Crown Grants given to us, so that everything may be clear for us, and that we may be like the Europeans. For this reason I say that this Conference should be made permanent And another thought of mine is, that we should place full confidence in the laws of England, and that there should be no thought to hold back the land; each man should do as he pleases with his own piece. The Maories have seen the Europeans for many years, but they still hold on to the Maori Customs. With respect to what Te Hapuku said, I agree to the withholding of sugar and other commodities, that they should not be sold to the Waikato people, who are now carrying on their foolish work, so that they may say "Yes, our work is wrong." Their thonghts are with the Native King, but their desires are with the Europeans' goods. And so they can boast while carrying on their work of foolishness.

What Parakaia said is not clear. The reason of our not joining them in collecting money, for the roads in our settlement, was that the money was not expended in repairing the bridges and the streets, but was taken to the Bank. I said, This is wrong; rather let the roads be repaired that the horses of those who contribute the money, may travel upon them.

The Whanganui Chiefs wish the Conference to be held at their place. That does not appear right to me. Port Nicholson is a better place, for his a large town; but this is a point for the Governor to decide. I agree with their proposal that the Governor should find part of the provisions, and that we should furnish part as a work of love.

What the Ngapuhis have said about cleaving to the Europeans is right; their setting up the flagstaff cut down by Hone Heke at Kororareka was to show the Europeans that they do not consent to the Waikato project. They still hold fast their loyalty to the Queen. Let us hold to this good thing: let us be determined to cleave to this, that is, let us uphold what is good.

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Tukihaumene, (Ngatiwhakaue,) Maketu:—If they agree to that, it is well. One thing, however, let us make haste and finish the talk. Let the Queen's Sovereignty spread and extend to every place. From the Reinga (in the north) to where the sun rises, and on to Port Nicholson. The acknowledgment of the Queen has been agreed to by us all. Therefore, I say, let us finish this. Influenza and what not will be our death. Let us go to town where it is warm. It was said we should be one week, but you have now made the time long.

Hukiki, (Ngatiraukawa, ) Otaki: Listen this Conference. I am going to speak about the land,—about the work of the Queen and of the Governor. I wish to arrange the payment for my land with this, Mr. McLean's and the Governor's Conference, or rather with the Auckland Assembly. The reason why I mention this here is that great and small things have been brought here to be discussed. I now ask three thousand five hundred pounds; it will be for the Governor's assembly to consent. I have seen wheat weighed; the weight of the bag is taken off and the wheat only is reckoned and paid for. The price of a pig is reckoned at (say) a penny halfpenny; the pig is weighed and paid for according to the weight. For a larger pig, it may be twopence halfpenny; the pig is weighed and paid for at that rate. And now I shall press for three thousand five hundred; but it will be for the Runanga to arrange it (and fix the price).

Meeting adjourned to lst August, 1860.